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As someone who has always respected your voice, experience and insight, I look forward to part two.

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It is a criminal offence to purchase sexual services in this country. Full stop. Until that changes, 'clients' - who are overwhelmingly men - expose themselves to risks that could have life changing consequences and perhaps that factors into a subconscious desire for some to want to get the most bang for their buck while minimizing their exposure to perceived risk.

Just a thought.

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It is a criminal offence to purchase sexual services in this country. Full stop. Until that changes, 'clients' - who are overwhelmingly men - expose themselves to risks that could have life changing consequences and perhaps that factors into a subconscious desire for some to want to get the most bang for their buck while minimizing their exposure to perceived risk.

Just a thought.

 

While the desire to ''get the most bang for the buck'' is understandable and legitimate, it should never involve pressuring or manipulating a provider to work outside of her comfort zone and boundaries, and must always involve clear and informed consent.

 

It used to be that hockey players could just about kill each other on the ice, because it was considered a game, and as such outside of the purview of criminal prosecution as it was interpreted until relatively recently. As we all now know, the interpretation of the same Criminal Code today has resulted in a small number of hockey players being charged with assault.

 

Following the ongoing Tsunami started by the Weinstein affair about sexual harassment of mostly women and what may be considered adequate consent; the societal goalposts have moved significantly on these issues. We can assume that the courts will interpret the laws on sexual assault and reasonable consent more stringently in line with the movement of public opinion in that same direction.

 

The interpretation of laws by men and women who sit on the bench are guided by legal precedent, but also somewhat by the majority views of the population. I would guess that if we had taken the same survey of a random sampling of Canadian adults this time last year as we would today today, the views against those who sexually assault women have hardened significantly in that short period of time. And I would argue that the movement on that issue continues to move toward against any form of sexual harassment or assault.

 

One only has to look at the Anti-harassment codes in the federal government, where an unwanted touching of a colleagues shoulder may result in a loss of employment. And such codes do not consider the intend of the accused when he touched his secretary's shoulder '' as a gesture of appreciation'', but more on how that gesture made the woman feel and whether she had consented to that specific touch prior to it happening.

We can argue that the code makes it far too easy for false accusations to be made, but that is the direction such codes, regulations and laws are being written and interpreted. We can choose to ignore the shifting of these tectonic plates governing relations between men and women and act however we deem appropropriate, but the risks of such an approach are increasing quickly.

 

So testing or pushing boundaries with a provider to see how far we can get, may now open that client being charged and convicted for sexual assault. But, more importantly, from an ethical point of view, the payment of money for sexual services should not in any way change the way we view consent and respect in our relations with SW's .

 

Drawing on the arguments made by Cat in this regard, nothing should be assumed by a client when meeting a provider and unambiguous consent must be sought and obtained before doing something not already clearly agreed to. And even if agreed to beforehand, a provider may decide during the meeting to restrict certain services for a number of reasons, hence the expression YMMV.

 

I would argue, that we men are able to know when we are about to go too far with a SP, MP or dancer. I can usually sense it by body language and facial expressions. I have known providers to give a physical signal, such as turning away or impeding access, which should be a clear enough signal we have already gone too far. But by that time the harm has been done, and a provider may legitimately feel that we have acted disrespectfully.

 

Now, as clients we are happy when a provider is enthusiastic and shows warmth and genuine affection. But if disrespectful behaviour by clients occurs as little as 10% of all SP's and MP's appointments, let's say for argument; the emotional burden and suffering from being disrespected day after day, over a long period of time, not knowing when it will happen next, by potentially hundreds of different men; may have a cumulative effect that will force some women to quit the business, others to break down physically or emotionally, and for the majority to become hardened and more wary from these negative experiences.

 

I don't know how we as clients can expect all SW's to be carefree, enthusiastic, and always horny and raring to go, if we know that they are subjected to demeaning behaviour on a daily basis. I don't know anyone who is subjected to disrespect in their workplace, if only by one person of authority, over a period of time who does not suffer greatly from a lack of self-esteem and and end up either severely depressed, forced to leave their job or worse.

 

And this type of client-provider abuse must be serious and pervasive. One has just to look at the tweets of random providers to see how bad the situation is. As clients, we either bite the bullet, accept this is today's reality and actively do something to stop it, or we can continue to be a big part of the problem.

 

While I would never think of the majority of men or male members of this board to be disrespectful in the way I have described, but we can still be active and part of the solution by supporting SW's rights and improved working and health care conditions, and by calling out other men who brag about how they pushed a vulnerable provider to provide the maximum mileage at the minimal cost and got all kinds of extras that she initially said she didn't provide. They should no longer find any website, bar, club house, locker room, water cooler or man cave where such pride in committing sexual assault will be tolerated, never mind encouraged. It will take guts and commitment, but change sometimes come one conversation or tiny action at a time. And for those of us who admit to have been disrespectful and taking advantage of the situation with SW's in the past, it is never too late to make amends and promise ourselves to do the honorable thing from now on.

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Guest *Ste***cque**

I hear you loud and clear, Cat. This business does need regulation, although I'm not sure self regulation will work.

 

The world has always had "free riders" that will seek an advantage over others and never consider the consequences, just their own desires. As long as this behavior gets rewarded it will continue and even grow. From people who butt lines to people who cut you off in traffic to people who package bad mortgages and sell them as triple A investments and even people who pressure unwilling sex workers for extras, what they share is a willingness to seek a short term advantage and only think of themselves. We always had a bit of that but the pendulum is swinging to the selfish and short sighted side, it seems lately.

 

Regulation is necessary to save people from their worst instincts. Until that happens all I can do is live by my own code which at it's most basic is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Some will call that quaint but I always believe the world is how we make it.

 

I hope others will take to heart what you have posted.

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I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to a MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs shouldn't offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

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I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to a MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs shouldn't offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

 

WIR, I was going to do my best of answer you last night . However I see now that cat has already done so . Probably in a more clear and concise way.

 

Aren't we lucky to have her!!

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I'm a member who for the most part prefers SPs. I'm not really into seeing MAs, I've only been twice, and I'm not one who frequents SCs much at all so I'm just going to throw this out there. I'll refrain from using any names but if one chooses to feel free to view the thread from which this thread stems from.

 

We had at least three very highly respected Providers post on this previous thread who stated they offer different types of services. One is an independent SP who posted she also offers massage sessions. Another is an independent MA who on her ads and website offers Strip Tease during her sessions and another who is an Independent MA who also offers SP sessions. In addition to these three most of us who are members here in Ottawa are well aware of yet another highly respected Provider who is a member here that advertises in both the SP and MA sections here on Lyla.

 

Some of the opinions expressed in the OP and in part 2 of the subsequent post are suggesting if a client wants SP services (whatever comprises such) to only see an SP. If a client wants a massage to go to an MP and if one wants erotic dancing go to a Strip Club. I'm curious if any of these providers who posted on the previous thread feel at all targeted or agree with the OP's comments of being a part of or the problem itself?

 

I guess another comment I don't quite agree with or fail to understand is the rational thinking behind the message stating MP owners/operators should fight for legal right or obtain a permit for providing anything more than a manual release. I may be unknowing so does such a permit exist? Do any SPs possess any type of permit for services they offer and render? Lastly, is the OP suggesting if a Provider offers massage sessions they should only offer this type of session at MPs, so no independent MAs or SPs shouldn't offer massage and SPs and MAs shouldn't offer Strip Tease?

 

I work as an SP who offers massage services and have worked in a SC.

 

I am going to agree with Cat.

 

I really wish that while I was working in the SC, I was respected enough by clients and management, to ensure that only SC services were offered and received.

 

The ladies who offered "take-out" made it so much harder for us who did not want to offer FS or BBBJs. Clients would always push boundaries and say "so-so" does it. Management would not care so long as LE didn't find out. Other then that, they did not do a thing to prevent it. If those ladies wanted to escort, they should have just done it like every other escort.

 

When I offer a MA session, I will not allow SP services. Other then some light kissing and maybe a show of my breasts, it is a full massage with HE only. I won't even go as far as a BS because I think if you want the full MA experience you should go to a MPA for it.

 

Sadly, clients, ladies and agents/management are never going to agree and therefore there will be "spas" that are basically incall agencies and "take-out" from SC.

 

And SPs can certainly offer some of the related services of SC or MPA but for me, from me, it is a limited experience because if you want that full experience, I feel you should go where those are offered. I only offer a sample of those as well as my main FS SP session.

 

Having said all that, the facesitting thread brought to light a major issue. Not necessarily about who should be doing what in the business. What was concerning is men feeling that they can "test the limits" by sticking their tongue on a lady's vagina without prior consent. The idea that the best way to get consent is by doing first instead of asking first is the main issue in my opinion.

 

It seems really simple to me - if you want to try something with a SP, MA, or dancer - YOU ASK FIRST. Full stop.

 

You don't try the physical act and wait to be told no. I think that is the shift that needs to happen in society. It has to change from trying and waiting for a no to asking and waiting to receive a yes.

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I'm not looking for or intending any type of back and forth unless in a civilized manner.

 

Phaedrus made ultra valid points on his post in regards to exotic love. His points are well stated and well written in a very respectful manner that would make even Plato proud.

 

I realize MAs who don't offer more than a HE may also agree with the points made by the OP and in the subsequent post. Other than that, I only see SPs posting on this thread having an issue with who offers what services. I will use this term in the most respectful manner possible, sincerely. Why does it appear that only SPs are seemingly the ones feeling entitled to offering what they feel are SP only services yet at the same time feel they can offer massage and strip tease? Even SPs do/offer/render HEs yet opinions are being made that this is all MAs should offer. I don't agree and I've only had two MA visits. Like Phaedrus stated; if this makes me a "bad person", a part of or the problem itself in thinking this way, so be it. :) We are all entitled to our opinions.

 

My personal belief on all of this is that between fully consenting legal adults, regardless of gender and number of participants (in or outside of the industry), will never be free of opinions but should be free of public judgement. In the end, as previously stated by GoinDown, who are any of us, all being in this industry, to publicly judge anyone.

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I'm not looking for or intending any type of back and forth unless in a civilized manner.

 

Phaedrus made ultra valid points on his post in regards to exotic love. His points are well stated and well written in a very respectful manner that would make even Plato proud.

 

I realize MAs who don't offer more than a HE may also agree with the points made by the OP and in the subsequent post. Other than that, I only see SPs posting on this thread having an issue with who offers what services. I will use this term in the most respectful manner possible, sincerely. Why does it appear that only SPs are seemingly the ones feeling entitled to offering what they feel are SP only services yet at the same time feel they can offer massage and strip tease? Even SPs do/offer/render HEs yet opinions are being made that this is all MAs should offer. I don't agree and I've only had two MA visits. Like Phaedrus stated; if this makes me a "bad person", a part of or the problem itself in thinking this way, so be it. :) We are all entitled to our opinions.

 

My personal belief on all of this is that between fully consenting legal adults, regardless of gender and number of participants (in or outside of the industry), will never be free of opinions but should be free of public judgement. In the end, as previously stated by GoinDown, who are any of us, all being in this industry, to publicly judge anyone.

 

 

First I don't know what you would feel this discussion is not civilized but I will try to continue the discussion anyway.

 

To the first bolded part, I believe I can speak as an SP because I was a dancer. So if I have experience from both sides. There are many SPs who were in massage and changed as well like I did. So that is why I feel I can state my opinion on both.

 

To get to the point about services offered. SP services are Full Service. That does not mean sex. That means everything including sex. That means the possibility of massage, striptease, sexual services, dinner dates, social outings, overnights, companion trips, etc. I don't know how better to explain it but escort services include MA and SC services. You don't go to a MPA for a striptease, you don't go to a SC for a massage. I don't get your confusion on this.

Most escorts, however, are like me and only offer those services in a limited fashion because personally, I want to focus more on the intimate sexual acts vrs the teasing.

 

 

To the second bolded comment, I don't see where there is judgement happening expect regarding discussion of consent. And as you have stated everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not to mention that some opinions about men licking vaginas of MA's without prior permission are just that. Opinions, not judgments. At least not in my opinion. You are free to disagree.

 

However, I will ask directly,

 

do you think it is okay to do trying for a sexual act first and wait for a no, or should men ask first and wait for a yes?

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@phaedrus - Yes, in Ontario at least the legal standing is that HE is legal in a spa but the spa needs a municipal business license which are limited in number and grandfathered in. This is why private members clubs have started. There was a spa who took on the legal fight and won years ago.

 

I agree its in human nature to push and be self centered but it doesn't mean we have to. We can do better and we need to. Anyone who believes that their wants/needs trump all else consistently contribute to the abuse SWs experience as a whole. Each and everyone in the industry needs to realize that or else things will turn. Out providers will eventually start considering legal options. I've sat and listened to multiple no brand Dancers and MAs discuss it and the truth is that these women make up the bulk of workers in the industry. It would only take a small number of these women cooperating with LE to ensure industry wide disruption due to legal entanglements. Trust me when I say it's being seriously considered here in Ottawa so LE may be highly motivated to start book throwing.

 

@WIR I'm unsure where the conversation here could be considered uncivilized. Perhaps if you point it out, those who have offended would I'm sure be happy to apologize. Of course Phaedrus was clear, concise and on point. He is an exceptionally considerate, articulate and self aware man. I would expect no less from him in any conversation and we have had more conversations over the years than I can count.

 

As for your comment regarding MAs contributing here, perhaps you are unaware of the way the spas work. Most MAs don't participate on the review boards accept to post ads, it's the owner/managers that are active and I don't expect any of them to step in here given their unethical business practices. I'd be surprised if 15% of MAs have ever read anything other than their own review threads. Providers choose Spas to maintain their anonymity, having an online presence in the sex trade is at best uncomfortable for them, participating in threads isn't one of their pastimes.

 

I think what you are missing is that if any provider chooses to offer services, they are welcome to do it. They just should have the decency to respect the service divides. Any contract worker that provides extras are escorts so why don't they just go work for an escort agency? It makes no sense. Please trust me when I say this service bleed is resulting in acts that are in fact sexual assaults on a daily basis and rest assured, there will be backlash sooner than later. I'm unsure why you can't grasp that what I'm saying is that service bleeds has led to sex workers being regularly assaulted in these venues. You can't deny my claim and I can actually back it up with proof. I'm trying to inform this community that there need to be changes because there could be serious legal fall out coming. Why you insist you are standing on the high ground is disconcerting and speaks to the attitudes that lead to this problem to begin with. Being the problem is a truth whether you choose to see it or not. Even if you haven't crossed a boundary, your attitude empowers those that do. I appreciate you are entitled to your opinion just as it's my right to explain why your opinion contributes to the violence workers experience in this industry.

 

As for the judgement statement, the fact that I am in this industry and I'm immersed in it wholly means if I can't speak to the aspects of the sex trade that are dangerous, who then can? Who is suppose to try to protect and ensure workers aren't violated but the workers themselves? Are clients to be our protectors, the voice of reason here? Many could be, judging from the pms I've received; they understand what I've been saying but I don't have anything to be ashamed of being a sex worker and being non judgemental doesn't mean "anything goes". Rapists, sexual harassers and boundary pushers aren't the weird, creepy guy living in secluded safety of his mothers basement. It's anyone who thinks their behaviour is acceptable after being told it isn't and anyone dismissing or denying violence is happening after being told that it is happening. I think that's a fairly simple concept to grasp. And I'm trying to tell you, it's happening. I'm unsure how to make it any more clear.

 

smiles, cat

 

Additional Comments:

This is exactly the issue, it's a good read...

 

http://www.myajc.com/news/local/cheetah-dancers-allege-sexual-assault-top-atlanta-strip-club/6udoC3nhtw2JXJM9uzv3vJ/

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@Jessica Rain

About, "do you think it is okay to do trying for a sexual act first and wait for a no, or should men ask first and wait for a yes?"

 

Of course I don't think it's okay! Yes, clients should always ask first.

 

@cat

It's unfortunate you feel as you do at the moment. It's nearly the Holiday Season, be happy!

 

To both Jessica and cat

This is what I stated on my previous post, "I'm not looking for or intending any type of back and forth unless in a civilized manner."

 

I didn't mention nor do I feel it has become uncivilized anywhere on this thread so one should not feel any need to apologize.

 

 

As for this thread generally of opinions,

I'm now seeing the same opinions being expressed over and over again by the same members so I will agree to disagree with some of the opinions here. As such, I'm removing myself from this thread at the moment.

 

Cheers,

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@WIR

 

What on earth would entitle you to think I'm unhappy? Only an assumption on your part; rest assured. You bowing out is appreciated given your inclination to dismiss and deny by claiming what I've said to be simple opinion. Again, that is the problem at hand I've been trying to address. Have a lovely Christmas and may all that you put into the world come back at you 10 fold...

 

smiles, cat

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Thank you Cat for bringing up this important conversation.

 

I still remember when I provided massage rates. I would explain to a client that this was a happy ending. One client in particular said "I don't want intercourse" a number of times. So I thought he understood. However, as I was massaging him, he lifted his head up and licked my pussy. I stood back to use body language that this was not ok. As I again went to massage him, he did it again. I stopped and said "it looks like you want full service. Daty is not included." He again said "I don't want intercourse". So, his opinion is that full service means intercourse. My opinion is full service means any of my openings. Mouth, pussy or anus.

 

I stopped saying no Greek and spelling out "no anal services" because so many thought that meant their penis. However their finger or tongue were ok.

 

There is a push from clients for more and more for less and less. I do notice that the prolific reviewers typically rarely are ideal clients. It feels to me anyway that there are those that view sw's as a piece of meat they can use as they wish. Ideal clients are clear on boundaries.

 

Consent must always be enthusiastic and continual. On both sides. So many providers grit their teeth and don't speak up during a session where the client has crossed the boundary. I've seen this myself, so know it happens.

 

As a client, please make sure boundaries are clearly defined BEFORE the session begins. As a provider, please don't allow clients to get services from you that you don't want to provide. You have the right and obligation to say no. Clients must also speak out when they hear other guys say things that are clearly not ok.

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@phaedrus - Yes, in Ontario at least the legal standing is that HE is legal in a spa but the spa needs a municipal business license which are limited in number and grandfathered in. This is why private members clubs have started. There was a spa who took on the legal fight and won years ago.

 

Ya, I was talking about Federal Law, not the Ottawa or Ontario regulations. I know that some places are officially sanctioned by the City and others have worked around that. The fact that the two are wildly inconsistent simply reflects how screwed up the whole sorry mess has become.

 

I agree its in human nature to push and be self centered but it doesn't mean we have to. We can do better and we need to. Anyone who believes that their wants/needs trump all else consistently contribute to the abuse SWs experience as a whole. Each and everyone in the industry needs to realize that or else things will turn. Out providers will eventually start considering legal options. I've sat and listened to multiple no brand Dancers and MAs discuss it and the truth is that these women make up the bulk of workers in the industry. It would only take a small number of these women cooperating with LE to ensure industry wide disruption due to legal entanglements. Trust me when I say it's being seriously considered here in Ottawa so LE may be highly motivated to start book throwing.

 

The problem here is that we live in the world we're in, and we have to deal with human nature as it is. There are plenty of decent people out there, but there are enough assholes to be a problem, and that won't change. That issue is by no means unique to this industry. We have to collectively figure out what to do about it.

 

To go off on a slight tangent for a moment... from my perspective, one of the most striking things about all we've heard since Weinstein is that general and non-specific descriptions of abuse have been replaced by specific ones. The power of that transition is not to be underestimated: a specific accusation by one person against another, even if it isn't then followed by many others backing it up to demonstrate a pattern of behaviour, is far more persuasive than generic statements that really bad stuff happens. That transition can't happen here as the board rules prevent it, but...

 

I get the impression that the latter part of your paragraph above alludes to the possibility of providers pursuing prosecutions against clients for sexual assault, or worse. Is that right? If so - and being fully aware of that old saw about being careful what you wish for - would it be a very bad thing if that shoe dropped? It would *really* send the message that no, you can't do this, and there will be consequences if you try it, and the days when you could get away with it are over. I'm sure that would change the calculus for those who may feel inclined to try. And it would replace the general descriptions of abuse with specific ones. Of course, that's not something to be done lightly, and the law of unintended consequences undoubtedly applies, but I can see how it could be to the industry's long-term benefit.

 

Additional Comments:

So, his opinion is that full service means intercourse. My opinion is full service means any of my openings. Mouth, pussy or anus.

 

Bearing that in mind...

 

As a client, please make sure boundaries are clearly defined BEFORE the session begins. As a provider, please don't allow clients to get services from you that you don't want to provide. You have the right and obligation to say no. Clients must also speak out when they hear other guys say things that are clearly not ok.

 

Perhaps we also need to try and get away from terms like "full service". Clearly defining boundaries is great... but it relies on everyone understanding the same thing by the words used, and if that isn't happening then there will be problems even if everyone's trying to do the right thing.

 

Please, nobody try and hijack this thread with a debate about what GFE means.

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I realize MAs who don't offer more than a HE may also agree with the points made by the OP and in the subsequent post. Other than that, I only see SPs posting on this thread having an issue with who offers what services. I will use this term in the most respectful manner possible, sincerely. Why does it appear that only SPs are seemingly the ones feeling entitled to offering what they feel are SP only services yet at the same time feel they can offer massage and strip tease?

 

 

It is not the first time that you bring up entitlement. In the Facesitting thread, you even said that SPs are reacting to the issue out of jealousy. If you want to talk in a civilized manner, that would be great if you keep the misogynistic stereotypes out of the discussion.

 

As the SP who hijacked the Facesitting thread to call out the problematic, here's my point of view:

 

I am an escort, I offer full service and my rates are established accordingly. MAs and Dancers will generally charge much less than an escort, yet they physically work A LOT harder. Giving a full body massage for an hour or dance all evening on a stage is physically highly demanding, a lot more than just sex and pillow talks. Escorts do a great deal of emotional labour, but so are the MAs and Dancers. Yet they choose this area of the sex industry regardless. Why? Physical boundaries, avoid stigma associated with full service workers, don't like to be touched by strangers, their SO not comfortable with their partner offering full service, physical limitations, etc.

 

As an escort who's minimal introduction starts at $800, it doesn't add up in my head why a MA would charge $150 or so to work her ass off, only to end up providing the service of a SP. I think it is highly unfair to them. No, I don't think anyone is stealing labour from me.

 

I have mentioned in the Facesitting thread that everyone are entitled to provide services they are comfortable with, but Cat made me changed my mind: if a MA wants to provide more than a HJ, she should not be doing so in a massage parlour, but in a hotel room. New, unexperienced MAs who just joined the business probably think it's the industry standard to offer extras. I therefore don't think massage providers do offer them out of greed and/or selfishness.

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Thank you Cat. I read this post twice and you've articulated many thoughts that have been percolating over the past year of getting to know this industry. As people tend to do, I've drawn on my past experiences working in other sectors and I've wondered (sometimes aloud) why we aren't banding together to discuss and implement some professional standards. And especially, as you've rightly identified, the political climate is already overripe for organizing our sector from taxation, labour laws and human rights perspectives.

 

In other sectors leaders have stepped up and facilitated the creation of common ideals. As SW we are independent, yes, like artists. However, you're right, the greater social impact should not be overshadowed by our personal autonomy. If a rising tide floats all boats, the low tide will is surely ground many.

 

I'm solution-oriented and so hopeful a discussion of what industry standards can and should be will take place. I'm not being obtuse or provacative here with these questions but completely matter-of-fact: What is meant for example by unsafe practices? What is meant by low fees? These are obviously sensitive topics but is it possible to at least talk about historical standards versus today? Or share different approaches?

 

I appreciate your very frank commentary. That in an of itself has raised the bar from my own perspective. I would like to hear more and especially from other SWs on these issues.

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"If you expect unlisted or unsafe services, you are the problem."

 

Hmm. Most spas or MPs don't list HE's, let alone hand-jobs. And most don't explicitly offer them when you attend. They might tease and hint that extras are available for the asking, but usually wait for the client to ask. So, yes, by your standard, I am the problem.

 

But one of the things I like about MPs is the uncertainty, and the seduction dance, and it would be sad to lose that. If you can't see that, you are the problem.

 

Moreover, asking for a service is not coercion just because the provider fears loss of business. That's just how business is done.

 

Finally, your boundaries are kind of arbitrary. Most of society would consider a spa's boundary to fall short of HEs, and if you don't agree, they would consider you part of the problem.

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Part of the problem I think is that everyone's worried about each others backyard.

 

The only thing I'm in compliance with is the law. That's what people here have really forgotten about. The law states that we can't advertise sexual services. So some of us have tied things up in a pretty little bow. For the companions who have always provided a full service girlfriend experience which includes social and true companionship features; the change was simple. We didn't really have to change much. I have never been too descriptive in my advertising leaving it to be playful, keeping some things to the imagination. However, I do feel bad for more of the pse escorts as they have had a harder time trying to depict their escort style. It takes all kinds and I'm confident That I attract the right people to me by what I put out there. I guess what I'm saying is the girls advertising dangerous services do not need to reflect anyone else except themselves. What others do, do not need to reflect me or "my brand".

 

 

Now, I don't really care what a MA does in regards to the services she gives. That's between two consenting adults. The only hope I have is that the service provider charges appropriately for what she's doing. When I'm working I also provide erotic massage. However, it's the same price as my regular companionship donation. Why because I like to be mentally prepared and if things do move on to the next level...I don't want to be bringing up money and extra charges. It's not too sexy IMO. However, again it's not my business and who am I to say how much someone charges. As long as the service provider is happy with what she is charging. Sa la vie. Again, I'm not into enforcing my version of standards on anyone.

 

However, I do think spa owners and other MA's working in massage parlors should respect the laws of where they work and who they work with. Let's call a spade a spade. It does become a common bawdy house when even one or more people are providing sexual acts for money. Putting yourself, the people you work with and even the client in danger of persecution. Then again these things are choices I have not made for myself. So I can conveniently push that aside and say the choice is yours to participate in whatever you choose to. Who knows maybe that's part of the appeal for some people? There is of course other options clients can take. For example: independent Ma's, Escorts, etc. The only ones that this truly effects is the new MA's who don't know that extra's are going on. As this is becoming less and less of a secret that may effect the choice of new girlseven wanting to dabble with being an Ma. Why because now really there's no difference between being a Ma and an escort (at least at known bawdy house). A stigma and services some do not want to offer. So again law of attraction trumps.

 

On public boards there will be all kinds of personalities. Those who do like dangerous services. Those who want a safe provider and everyone in between. The one thing that I want to push forward is that everyone here deserves respect. Whither you agree with their business style or not. As a client if you have a specific request, ask first and don't force said request on to the companion. Respect any requirements to see chosen companion. There's a reason to the why's. Not one way is better than the other. So pay attention to what the companion writes in her ads, on her website and what she/he says. I think that that's what the let's call the middle escorts are lacking. The support, respect and compassion of what we escorts do. We are not on the cold streets surviving, nor are we making thousands of dollars per session. We however are diligently running our businesses the best way we know how. It's one thing to suggest/mentor,however, dictating and demands. I think just put a bad taste in people mouth and push them away. Maybe the law will decide that people need conformity, until then let's not play the role of vigilante.

 

Now I think part of the problem is that everyone is too worried about what everyone else is doing. I think the only thing we can really do is represent ourselves in the manner we want to be seen in. Put our best foot forward and by being that person to look up to. That speaks more to me anyway. The fact of the matter is that the lines have been blurred and how can we respectfully coexist in a manner that benefits everyone? Let's just keep it easy. Be respectful, that's it.

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The law states that we can't advertise sexual services.

 

Clarification. As an independent provider, I am allowed to advertise my services. Clients are not allowed to purchase sexual services, which is why I do not advertise sexual services. Third party advertisers (backpage, handlers, spas, agencies etc) are not allowed to advertise sexual services of another person.

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Nice Thread! Educational.

Stripper tips: the reason I mostly stopped tipping strippers was because of the change of the dollar bill to the loonie & toonie. Loonies, the small coin was hard for strippers to hold as opposed to a bill. And back then no way was I gonna give a $5 bill.

Funny thing about coins I seen a few guys do the 2 thumb conversion, flicking the coin across the stage and trying to hit the jackpot and sink the coin between the breasts.

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