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Old 04-03-2017, 02:37 PM
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Default A long road ahead...but!

Recent news that marijuana will soon be legal in Canada:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/libe...-pot-1.4041902

A question asked after seeing this:
"When will the Liberals revisit Bill C-36?"

Answer:
"When hobbyists and clients have the guts to advocate for it in public like pot smokers did!"

This is true. For years marijuana smokers and advocates for the use of the drug have been fighting hard to legalize marijuana in Canada, all around the world for that matter. Over the course of many years on April 20th(4-20) marijuana smokers have been protesting by walking onto Parliament Hill and have been smoking the drug in plain view. Not only on Parliament Hill but at other Government buildings and at University and College campuses across the country. This event does not just take place in Canada, it occurs in numerous countries around the world.

The fight for their cause began somewhere. Over time, masses joined in for the fight and eventually funds were raised. Their strength and unity became so strong that it could no longer be ignored. They sought out legal representation and those representing the cause fought hard to make marijuana legal in this country. The actions forced Canada to review their marijuana laws on more than one occasion.

Alas, it seems the end is near for the legalization of marijuana in Canada. Although I no longer use this substance, I am happy for them. They never gave up!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to our struggle:

Something is meant to be learned from this. Some of the steps they went through can be applied to the oldest known industry. So even though the sex industry still has a long road ahead, it can happen. Legalizing marijuana in Canada can show the sex industry that one thing is for sure, that anything is possible!

What are we waiting for???

Happy day to you all!

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Old 04-17-2017, 02:07 AM
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Sex workers are already extremely active in lobbying and advocating for decriminalization.

If you're a client who cares about decrim, consider donating to your local sex worker organization, that is already doing this work.

These groups do amazing, important work, usually with next to no money. Unsurprisingly, grants and government funding are thin on the ground.

https://www.butterflysw.org/
http://maggiestoronto.ca/
http://chezstella.org/en/
http://www.pivotlegal.org/
http://www.pace-society.org/
https://sunshinehousewpg.org/
http://www.shiftcalgary.org/
http://steppingstonens.ca/

And many others.

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Old 04-17-2017, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Regent View Post
Sex workers are already extremely active in lobbying and advocating for decriminalization.
The problem with most if not all of these organizations is they seem primarily about street work which is WAY different than in private consenting adults.

Street work is a public nuisance and for example in New Zealand residence groups are going wild with complaints and pressure to change the law to outlaw street work. Businesses don't want it in front of them on sidewalks etc.

Zones of tolerance seem the only practical solutions maybe in industrial areas away from residences and local businesses. However, when tried in Europe they have been mostly failures.

In the U.S. SWOP has been a total failure for like 30 years. It almost won in a referendum in Berkley years ago except for the outrage that the ballot calling for the city to not enforce the State prostitution law from citizens saying "not on my street."

Likewise the old San Francisco task force recommended not enforcing only after the residential representative walked out in protest.

And these are probably the most liberal cities in the U.S.

In Canada, C36 is basically in most cities only being enforced based on complaints about street work or if there is abuse, underage etc., but based on "harm reduction" little or no enforcement against in private consenting adults.

Police Chiefs in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have basically confirmed this in press releases after C36 was passed.

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Old 04-17-2017, 02:16 PM
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I agree about the advocacy, but Jody Wilson-Reybold was given a mandate letter to revisit all the criminalization, mandatory minimums etc. But she has done very little as Minister of Justice. The cannabis question was given to Anne McLellan a former justice minister and Bill Blair. While doing incredibly little, she has still managed to visit South Africa, which under Zuma is an example of what not to do in terms of rule of law. Even nominations to superior courts have moved at a snail's pace. She has about six months to introduce some bills and get her house in order. If not it will be "too close to an election" to do anything.

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Old 04-17-2017, 02:28 PM
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I agree about the advocacy, but Jody Wilson-Reybold was given a mandate letter to revisit all the criminalization, mandatory minimums etc. But she has done very little as Minister of Justice. The cannabis question was given to Anne McLellan a former justice minister and Bill Blair. While doing incredibly little, she has still managed to visit South Africa, which under Zuma is an example of what not to do in terms of rule of law. Even nominations to superior courts have moved at a snail's pace. She has about six months to introduce some bills and get her house in order. If not it will be "too close to an election" to do anything.
I feel a lack or the non-existence of mass public protests is a big achilles' for the sex industry.

In regards to the cannabis movement it seems it wasn't the just the dealers (if any) that were protesting, it was the consumers; whereas, in the sex industry it would seem that only sex workers are protesting and not many (if any) punters are. As we all know, there are many more punters than there are workers.

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Old 04-17-2017, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Phoenix View Post
In Canada, C36 is basically in most cities only being enforced based on complaints about street work or if there is abuse, underage etc., but based on "harm reduction" little or no enforcement against in private consenting adults.

Police Chiefs in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have basically confirmed this in press releases after C36 was passed.
Given that there are ongoing sweeps and stings in many Canadian cities, non-enforcement is not a reality. This includes recent stings in Winnipeg airport hotels and body rub parlour raids in Toronto. The city of Montreal is looking to start cracking down on erotic massage parlours as well.

While indoor workers may not be a law enforcement priority, it's naive to think that law enforcement is taking a harm reduction or hands off approach to indoor sex work.

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The problem with most if not all of these organizations is they seem primarily about street work which is WAY different than in private consenting adults.
That's inaccurate. Most of these groups are members of the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform which is working for broad decriminalization, and work with a diversity of sex workers, which may include but are not limited to street-based workers.

And while you may see street-based sex work as a public nuisance and significantly different from indoor sex work, the sex workers' rights movement does not.

Zones of tolerance and other legislation that pushes sex workers into areas that are more dangerous to work (such as industrial areas), or where they are removed from where the clients are will always fail. These types of laws continue to criminalize sex workers and to my knowledge are never created in consultation with the sex workers who will be impacted by them.

Street-based sex work cannot be excluded from the discourse or movement for sex workers rights. All sex work occurs on a continuum, and if we want to make things better for sex workers and their clients, we need solutions that do so for all sex workers and their clients. Addressing legal barriers to working indoors will help address the "nuisance" of street-based work. Beyond that, a more holistic push to address the social factors that drive people to "survival" work will have further positive impact on street-based sex work - so addressing poverty, an insufficient social safety net, housing insecurity, lack of affordable education, economic factors that push people to leave their home communities for bigger cities where they lack a support system, employment discrimination against trans people, etc.

Clients don't have to support the organizations and work that already exists, but it would be prudent to do so. Sex workers have been organizing for decades, and have created a vibrant and robust global movement. I have yet to see any meaningful movement toward clients organizing for decriminalization. While you may view the work of sex workers rights organizations to be a failure, there have been many successes in an uphill battle against stigma and moralizing.

If clients don't want to support sex worker orgs, how are they going to show up and advocate for decriminalization? How will they participate in applying the public pressure that definitely is necessary to create change?

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Old 04-17-2017, 10:44 PM
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If clients don't want to support sex worker orgs, how are they going to show up and advocate for decriminalization? How will they participate in applying the public pressure that definitely is necessary to create change?
I think that funding and public pressure are the main issues that need to happen before any major/drastic changes will ever really occur in the decriminalization/legalization of the sex industry. As I have said, and is known by all, it is the stigma of the industry itself that creates the biggest reason why punters and many workers are not willing to participate in the aforementioned activities. I feel that until such time, the progression will probably only continue at a snail's pace. Seems the overwhelming majority of people who participate in the industry enjoy benefiting from it but aren't willing to participate in making changes for it. Sad but true!
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Old 04-18-2017, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WhereIRoam View Post
I think that funding and public pressure are the main issues that need to happen before any major/drastic changes will ever really occur in the decriminalization/legalization of the sex industry. As I have said, and is known by all, it is the stigma of the industry itself that creates the biggest reason why punters and many workers are not willing to participate in the aforementioned activities. I feel that until such time, the progression will probably only continue at a snail's pace. Seems most people in the industry enjoy benefiting from it but aren't willing to contribute in any way to make changes for it. Sad but true!
Possibly. I'm a bit more optimistic. I do agree that most clients and many workers aren't going to do anything to draw attention to themselves until stigma has been addressed. However, there's a growing number of mainstream public health and human rights organizations that are taking a rights and evidence based stance on sex work. They have both resources and credibility to push decriminalization forward.

As we've seen, globally there is little appetite for openly taking a morality-based stance on sex work, and most organizations and governments would prefer to cast us all as victims of trafficking and exploitation (still a morality based stance, but one in denial of itself.) While this is still bad for clients and sex workers alike, it does make it a bit harder to justify legislation that is designed to harm us. The desire to ostensibly save us from harm provides a point where we can apply pressure toward better laws (much harder to do if we are all just cast as immoral, social deviants.)

In addition, while sex work is stigmatized the world over, there have been some significant successes, most notably New Zealand's 2003 Prostitution Reform Act, which decriminalized sex work and was developed in consultation with sex workers. While not perfect, it's pretty damned good, and was accomplished without a large movement of clients applying pressure.

It's going to take some time, C-36/PCEPA in the wake of Bedford was a pretty big blow, but I think we'll get there.

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Old 04-18-2017, 03:24 AM
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Regent
1) Please provide info on what you say have been body rub raids in Toronto. I know most of the owners. There have been issues with illegal Holistic Health Centers which are not licensed to do massage, with bylaw enforcement (not criminal) but not licensed adult body rubs that I know about i.e. Allure, SRM, etc. I would like to research what information you have. Likewise the zillions of agencies, incalls etc have had no reported C36 issues. The Russian agencies that use to be run by the mafia have closed but the gals were not in any trouble a few years ago.

2) It is not naive to think LE is taking hands off approach to non-street sexwork when major police chiefs issued press releases in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal soon after C36 was law. I know Winnipeg and Edmonton are more conservative. Edmonton requires escorts to have licensees as does Victoria B.C. However incalls were welcome in downtown Victoria long before it was legal under C36. The incalls use to be in Saanich until the Sheriff notified them they should move to Victoria. My only personal focus is Toronto.

3) Yes, the sex work law reforms groups of course also seek to decrim private sexwork. The reason they have always failed in the U.S. is because they INCLUDE street work which is a public nuisance. Most all Canadian cities to John stings of street work which is a totally different issue than private. Of course, the sex worker's rights groups don't think it is a public nuisance but the public and police do.

Headlines in New Zealand just in the past week include:
"Residents are finding used condoms in hedges and sanitary wipes in letter boxes, while construction workers have stood on needles. Resident Matt Bonis addressed a Christchurch City Council meeting today. He said people living on the corner of Manchester St and Purchas St were exposed to abuse from sex workers, robberies, littering of drug paraphernalia and even faeces on lawns." - Metro News NZ 4/6/2017

"We've had litter, we've had vandalism ..." Radio New Zealand - "Central Christchurch residents say they are under siege from sex workers, and one is threatening legal action if the city council does nothing." 4/17/2017

"Christchurch residents fed up with sex workers on the streets" - Family First org.nz 4/6/2017

The sexwork organization seem to be yelling, "Citizens be damned - we want to have the right to be a public nuisance on the streets!"

4) Of course, social programs to help issues of poverty, TS discrimination, etc. etc. etc. is needed. However, that is a totally different issue that public nuisance street hookers. Neighborhoods are tired of seeing condoms, drug needles or women afraid to walk around without being harassed by men looking for hookers.

5) I agree clients could be more active for getting rid of C36 related to non-street work. However, since it still has moral implications for many they are hesitant to become involved. Many have wives and families that they hide their activities from. In the U.S. private sexworkers other than a few don't want the legal exposure since we have a far more repressive system in the U.S. vs Canada.

6) Yes, the "victim" industry is strong both in the U.S. and Canada. The anti's have huge funding, religious backing and since they think they are fighting to "save" poor helpless abused sexworkers don't have supposed "righteousness" on their side vs the negative moral stigma.

7) Various polls and surveys in the U.S. depending on how its worded basically support not wasting LE resources going after in private consenting adults. But as soon as you include street work, the results have been overwhelmingly negative - for good reason... PUBLIC NUISANCE. Just like the uproar in New Zealand and pressure to re-criminalize street work.

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Old 11-01-2017, 01:36 PM
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I agree with the opinions that it is much than the marijuana issue with regards to clients advocating. Such as that many clients have wives, husbands, significant others, etc. Even those won't don't, there are the moral implications at work, with family or friends.

Pot has generally been accepted by society for the last couple decades, the sex industry is still demonized, and frowned upon by a fair amount of society. A client is highly stigmatized if they access Services because people say there's something wrong with them or they're dirt bags or losers or something along those lines.

People can't understand that maybe some are too busy with careers and such. Or made there are issues at home and the partner doesn't want to work on those issues so the client needs a product outlet. Maybe a client has social issues or insecurities that keep from being able to go and pickup or have relationships. Or maybe people can't understand that some people don't have a need for relationships and just want non committal adult relations.

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