Indy Massage and LE

If I were to get the services of a MA in Ottawa in the middle of the afternoon, should I be concerned about LE?

Forgive me, I'm brand new to the MA world and am nervous about LE.

If you are getting ANY kind of "Sexual" services then yes. That constitutes the place as a brothel. If your getting a MASSAGE service then you have no concerns (well ... as long as none of the massage attendants are doing things they should not be doing. If they are then you would be found in a common bawdy house if the place got busted while you were visiting). problem is we do not know what will be considered a "SEXUAL SERVICE" in regards to the new law as the GOVERNMENT left that pretty open (For the courts to decide if it comes down to that) so a full body rub with release may under this new law be considered a sexual act but then again most cities have body rub licenses and seam to all such things. SO NO ONE IS REALLY 100% ON THIS YET.

But realistically, the chances of LE raiding an independent MA at any time are pretty much zero.

Go ahead. Have fun. Don't worry about it :)

Phaedrus,

I say this respectfully. I'm not sure I agree. Clearly, the intent of C36 is to curb all type of activity whereby people pay for sexual services. Whether it's able to achieve that - and how, is entirely debatable. I have no doubt that LE will have difficulty enforcing this law, but I am also equally certain that they will try. How they accomplish that is anyone's guess, but I would not be surprised if they raid the occasional MA if for no other reason than to make the point that they, along with the spas, will be targeted. How much of a chilling effect will it have if people on this board (and others) read postings about random MAs being raided?

IMLO, LE has no legal right to enter the premises of an MA's private location. It is private property and they would need to have a search warrant issued by a Superior Court Judge to enter on site, and even then LE is not allowed to enter by force. They typically wait for the owner of the property to arrive. This idea of busting down doors is only on tv.

Neither the MA nor the gentleman would agree to open the door while someone is knocking during a session. So, just finish the session and then leave. Even if LE intercepts the gentleman or the MA on their way out, LE will have no evidence that any illegal activity has taken place.

By the way, if you are ever intercepted you have no obligation to speak to the police other than to identify yourself. Just don't say a word and walk away. If they try to stop you, just ask if you're under arrest. If the answer is no, you are legally allowed to just walk away and not say a word.

And with regards to spa's, this is one of the reasons I like CMJ Ottawa so much (and also because of Melodie and friends :icon_biggrin:). It's a private member's club, so it's not a public place. Their front door is locked at all times and members have to buzz in on camera and identify themselves as a member with an appointment to get in.

Either way, private locations are the way to go... and nothing illegal ever goes on there..

Have fun!

Phaedrus,

 

I say this respectfully. I'm not sure I agree. Clearly, the intent of C36 is to curb all type of activity whereby people pay for sexual services.

This is true.

Whether it's able to achieve that - and how, is entirely debatable.

This, however, is not. It won't. No government is going to manage to legislate sex work out of existence. Many have tried; all have failed. They can make it more difficult, and more dangerous for all concerned, but they can't stop it. I can't help but think that they know this, and that the knowledge of their own impotence is why the abolitionists are so *angry* all the time...

Let me ask you this: can you name any time and place in history where the exchange of sex for money hasn't happened, to a greater or lesser extent, irrespective of how much the government of the day approved of that or tried to stop it?

I have no doubt that LE will have difficulty enforcing this law, but I am also equally certain that they will try.

This has been debated a lot in other threads elsewhere on the board over the last few months, but... suffice to say, I disagree. LE have many better things to be doing than going after consenting adults who are having fun that the pearl-clutchers in government disapprove of.

Let me ask you another question: do you think that LE will enforce the new laws more zealously than the old ones? Visiting a MA at her place has always been illegal (it was being in a bawdy house under the old laws). They didn't get raided then. Why should they get raided now?

How they accomplish that is anyone's guess, but I would not be surprised if they raid the occasional MA if for no other reason than to make the point that they, along with the spas, will be targeted. How much of a chilling effect will it have if people on this board (and others) read postings about random MAs being raided?

Exactly the same effect as it always has done: none, because it hasn't happened, unless there was a good reason for it. And the only reason for it is that the person being raided has been indiscreet enough that the neighbors have worked out what's going on. The police work largely onteh basis of complaints, and if nobody complains then there's no need for them to do anything. The independent ladies I've met have all been concerned to ensure that they stay under the radar.

Of course, it's possible that LE could decide that they want to enforce the new laws far more rigorously than they ever bothered enforcing the old ones.... but I doubt that'll happen, and I'll continue to doubt it until I see it.

IMLO, the practical issues are a lack of evidence of illegal activity, low enforcement resources and the lack of cooperation from the judicial system.

1. It is difficult to obtain evidence without a search warrant, and a search warrant requires probable cause of illegal activity. It's like the chicken and the egg, which comes first... In the case of businesses operating in a private location, I've already covered that: it will never happen because there is no right of entry. In terms of spa's, I've said previously that private member's clubs avoid the issue and spa's open to walk-ins should IMO establish some form of intercom or door locking practices if they are raided so as to give everyone a head's up LE is there. I figure 28 seconds is enough to get dressed (just tried it). And to add on my previous post, if you are ever arrested immediately says only 4 words: ''I want a lawyer'' and shut up. No charges will stick and you'll walk away.

2. Police budgets are limited and Crown prosecutors find these types of cases childish. I know a few prosecutors in Ottawa. They are interested in serious offences, not political agendas brought forward by a conservative government that will, IMHO, fail to obtain a majority government (if any) at next year's election (FYI I have no affiliation or loyalty to any political party). Prosecutor's are generally overworked and most won't want to go to trial.

3. With regards to the judicial process, let's not forget the concept of pre-charge diversion programs (i.e. John School) to avoid ruining family lives over one moment of indiscretion. If it's your first offence, typically they will send the guys down that route. No one will know and you won't have a criminal record. Spas and Businesses may get stiffer treatment, but I sincerely doubt it as long as they stay low profile and don't employ anyone against their will.

Well, it's not even 9:00am and I'm already talking about Law, so it's time for coffee now. :icon_biggrin:

Does the scenario change if LE arrives at an indy residence based on a complaint from a nosey neighbor? Can they still just ignore the knocking on the door and wait for LE to leave?

IMLO, an indy's place of business is safe as long as it isn't open for walk-ins from the public. An appartment, condo, house, etc. would be private property and cannot be breached.

It seems to me that the best scenario for an indy is to have a place where you have to buzz or call to come up. That way, LE would have to identify themselves and be let in (which won't happen). Even if they get in the building some other way, and come knocking at the door, they can't just enter without permission of the owner or someone who is occupying the premises. I think its best not to answer the knock at the door during a session no matter what, but even if one did without thinking, the police can't just walk in unless they have a warrant or are invited. If they enter without a warrant, any evidence gathered from the illegal search and anything that derives from it will be deemed inadmissible in Court because it would be considered the fruit of the poisonous tree.

I don't want to sound as though I'm discouraging anyone from going to public spas. IMO some of the wildest sessions go on at such places. And wild is fun.

I really don't think this new law will change much practically speaking in any event. Penises have been chasing vaginas since the beginning of time. Why stop now? If Eve hadn't put out from day one, none of us would be here! :icon_biggrin:

Phaedrus,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I didn't mean to suggest that I believe that they'll put an end to prostitution. But I think the very fact that they've drafted this new law proves my point: They will try. However misdirected their effort(s) may be.

With respect to LE, I think this is different; it's a new law designed to curb (if not end) the behavior we've been discussing. It is meant to be an improvement upon the old law, closing loopholes and to provide a tool for LE to go after the customer.

In any event, do I think raids are unlikely? Sure. But I also know, from my life experience, that lots of things seem unlikely.

Until they happen.

In addition to my last post and in response to Lester, I don't believe a complaint from a neighbour would change anything. LE still has to get in the building and knock on the door. The MA and gentleman can still just ignore the knocking at the door. The only scenario that could be different is if the neighbour makes specific complaints about criminal activity going on there and LE gets them to swear an affidavit in support of obtaining a search warrant. That being said, most of the Judges I know would not grant the warrant without very specific allegations from the neighbour. Speculation alone would be insufficient. IMO, the neighbour would have to go as far as saying they have seen money exchanged and overheard it was some form of solicitation. BUT, in any event, LE still can't just bust down the door in executing the search warrant, so we're back to the sanctity of private locations.

To go further, even if one were charged (which would be a wrongful arrest IMO), the neighbour's credibility could easily be torn to shreds by defence counsel and if the search warrant is quashed, all evidence derived therefrom is inadmissible and charges will be dropped.

From speaking with lawyers, law professors and judges, I have been told that the real purpose of the legislation is to focus on what is visible on the streets and go after human trafficking. A noble cause. I hate the thought of human beings forced into the industry. The legislators are not interested in what goes on in the privacy of the nation's bedrooms (or hotel rooms :icon_wink:). IMO, the collateral effect of this will push the industry more in the closet and what happens in private locations will stay private.

Additional Comments:

In response to Vivero's post yesterday, I'd like to point out that raids have been made at some spas in Ottawa in the past few years, even before this new legislation was on the radar. It does happen. I was fortunate enough not to be there when they occured and have to deal with the stress that would entail. But I was told by a lady I know well what happens.

Essentially, LE shows up but does not try to create a panic or be too forceful. They ask politely if they can just come in and check things out because they want to make sure that the conditions are clean and safe, and make sure the girls are ok and no one is being forced to work there against their will. Once LE realized that the MA's are there on their own accord (and it really is their choice), LE left without the threat of any charges. I was told that the gentlemen who were there got a pass and LE did not ask them for ID or interview them. It was all about the safety of the girls.

And this goes to the heart of this matter. IMO, private locations are safe from raids because of the process involved to execute a search warrant. Public places are not. However, I believe spa's are a bit safer for the MA's as opposed to being independent. If LE tries to shake down all the spa's, alot of these very same ladies would go indy and this may increase the risks by being one on one with an idiot in private (I do acknowledge that indy's have their own safety practices, but still). The effect of closing down all spas is the exact opposite of what this legislation is intended to be. So I do not expect that the manner in which raids have been conducted in the past will change with this new legislation.

And for those places that are doing human trafficking - they have it coming and I believe charges are well deserved, and I would commend LE for a job well done in those cases.

I think you guys are missing the point, even though you have rights and LE's can't prove a thing, once exposed you're in a heap of trouble trying to keep your private hobby from getting out to friends or family or even the media who love a good story. Several years back I was at ****Soleil, and on my way back to ON. I heard news of a massive raid going on at various spas and indies one even down the street where I visited, I total shit myself thinking how unlucky I would have been if I got busted. Today I'm so cautious I pick and choose my MA's who have credibility specially from this site and I stick with them.

Rubjunky: I agree that we should be vigilant and conduct a screening of our own by verifying recommendations, reviews and reputation. I also agree that from a practical standpoint, your personal situation (family, job, etc.) may be such that the mere fact of being arrested or being named in public is problematic. I share your concerns for privacy.

That being said, the point I was making earlier is the distinction between open public spas that you can just walk-in vs. private members clubs (i.e. CMJ) or private locations (indies at their residence). The police have not and will not be entering private locations with force and without notice, even with a warrant. It would be a violation of police protocol to do so and they know it. So we're not talking about rights vs. reality here. If you're still picturing cops with battering rams, you've been watching too much Law and Order.

IMO, if you go to public spas, you have always (both before the new law and even today) assumed the risk of being arrested or outed, albeit very rare and difficult for LE to do. The mere fact of being in a spa is not a crime, so as long as you're not caught with your pants down -- literally -- you should be ok. Your name will not be made public simply because you were there.

If you are worried you have too much to lose (and I understand and respect that), then perhaps it is not worth the risk and you could just stick with private indies or private clubs. This is one of the reasons I have not been to public spas.

I honestly think the biggest risk is undercover LE (which I understand is pretty rare). Private clubs avoid such risks, especially in light of the manner in which you compensate the ladies for their time. You will not find a hot female officer undercover that will take off her clothes, offer to shower with you and more without any discussion of $. My experience has been that private clubs operate on a no $ discussed and pay at the end approach (you leave the club's established donation + tip in the room; no words spoken). Also, the club's reputation and hiring practices ensure that you won't have undercover LE. IMO, with indies, you should make sure they are established, have recos and someone you can reasonably trust vouching for them.

And now I'm rambling like RoamingGuy...

Yes I do get your point and I think we are only a few paragraphs away from a 100% agreement, I don't work for the blues and I am no way near a TV junky but what I do know about cops that our laws and their laws differ drastically. They will do an illegal bust just to put fear in the industry for a few months even if its illegal all they get is a slap on the hand, the media shits on them for violation of our rights but in the end they have exposed many patrons and workers.

I think we're getting there and the thread is unraveling and the universe is unfolding as it should.

Are you concerned that LE will actually bust down a locked door?

Looks like we will all have to be a little more careful in our endeavours.

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Last year, the premises of certain Ottawa MA location was attended by the police. No doors were busted open, no disturbances. They knocked on the door, asked permission to come in and check things out to make sure it was safe, clean and no human trafficking. If those criteria are met, LE walks away.

I do not see the amendments to the Criminal Code changing that approach and do not subscribe to paranoia or hysteria.

If there have been cases where LE breached a premises, it should not have been done and any charges laid proposed by LE would have been dropped by the Crown prosecutor.

I understand what Rubjunky is saying though about being named if LE crosses the line.