Rethinking Managment in the Adult and Sex Industry

I came here to post this and you already did! :)

The amount of useful information in these articles is simply staggering and I'm deeply grateful to those who did the research and to Samantha for bringing it to our attention.

Here's the Supreme Court website showing preparations for June 12/13

"2013-03-07 Appeal hearing scheduled, 2013-06-12"

http://www.scc-csc.gc.ca/case-dossier/cms-sgd/dock-regi-eng.aspx?cas=34788

It is great stuff, accurate and real.

But (it's always the but :) right), to be effective it needs to get into the mainstream.

Sad to say, but there needs to be someone to go public with what we all know; for the most part people in this world are there on their own free choice. Get one, we have a news story, get 50/100/200/? we have a movement.

Turn this around a bit. How many women (cause that's the focus) are in the business because they want to be; not coerced, in Canada? That's something the "moral majority" don't want to face.

As society we are more interested in the bad side of a story. How interesting is a story about an SP who enjoys what she does?

It is great stuff, accurate and real.

 

But (it's always the but :) right), to be effective it needs to get into the mainstream.

 

Sad to say, but there needs to be someone to go public with what we all know; for the most part people in this world are there on their own free choice. Get one, we have a news story, get 50/100/200/? we have a movement.

 

Turn this around a bit. How many women (cause that's the focus) are in the business because they want to be; not coerced, in Canada? That's something the "moral majority" don't want to face.

There is a lot of media attention being paid to this topic right now, leading up to the Supreme Court hearing on June 14. Just the other night, on Tuesday, CBC Radio's Ideas did a program about Madelaine Blair, a prostitute and brothel owner in Western Canada at the turn of the 20th century. Drawing from Madelaine Blair's memoir, it was a very good overview, among other things, of the differences between the laws and attitudes about prostitution in Canada compared to the US. It also included an overview of the SCC hearing in June.

As for the issue of coercion, that's a bit more complicated, I think. Speaking for myself, I was not coerced into adopting this profession in that no one pressured me into it or attempted to profit from what I do. It was my own decision to become a prostitute. Nevertheless, I made that choice because I was in fairly dire financial circumstances and had no other means to address them. Some might say that's coercion, though I don't. I think of myself as a survivor, above all; I'm someone who was and is determined to do the best I can whenever I can. I've never felt like a victim in this business. But I know women who have felt manipulated at times and who have managed to embrace this profession whole-heartedly and to do very well in it.

Before delving into the links Samantha's posted in her opening message for this thread I feel that it is important to point out that the industry as a whole is making progress. However like all issues which involve social change on a deep level this takes tremendous amounts of effort, commitment and time.

The questions being raised go to the very heart of how people treat each other not only in intimate ways, but on a social day-to-day level as well. The implications are far-reaching from the obvious sex worker and client all the way to how care is provided in the medical system. Because again we are talking about human needs and not just the bare essentials to keep someone alive. Indeed, the battle for the rights and safety of sex workers challenges many boundaries people have erected to ignore other's humanity. This is why there are so many factions and extreme viewpoints.

But things are changing for the better in a fair number of areas:

--]/b] The media is beginning to carry alternate not quite so slanted articles and debates.

--]/b] Health departments across Canada are beginning to quietly and honestly talk about sexual needs. [Thank goodness for horny, loudmouthed people in wheelchairs etc.!]

And despite the prevalence of the "Nordic model solution" in right wing articles, I believe that the general public is beginning to consider the sex industry as a legitimate and desired career choice.

PatrickGC

The hearing has been re-scheduled for June 13.

"2013-04-25 Order by, Ro, IT IS HEREBY ORDERED THAT:

Any attorneys general intervening on constitutional questions shall serve and file their factum and book of authorities no later than May 30, 2013.

IT IS HEREBY FURTHER ORDERED THAT:

The date of the hearing for this appeal has been re-scheduled to June 13, 2013.

Granted"

http://www.scc-csc.gc.ca/case-dossier/cms-sgd/dock-regi-eng.aspx?cas=34788

Is there any way we could conduct a nation wide online census of SP's to determine how many are in this industry voluntarily compared to being forced to do it?

Or an online petition that Indy's could sign to indicate that they're working by free choice?

If tens of thousands of SP's could somehow communicate as a group it would have an impact on the media, the general public, and hopefully the legal system.

Is there any way we could conduct a nation wide online census of SP's to determine how many are in this industry voluntarily compared to being forced to do it?

 

Or an online petition that Indy's could sign to indicate that they're working by free choice?

 

If tens of thousands of SP's could somehow communicate as a group it would have an impact on the media, the general public, and hopefully the legal system.

That would have an impact for sure! But it would be very difficult to do. Women who have been, or are being, forced into prostitution are difficult to reach. They don't join boards like this one, for example, or at least they don't in the early days of their career. And the majority of women leave the sex trade within six months of entering it. So it would be difficult to get the word out.

Petitions signed with pseudonyms are of questionable value, yet most of us would not be willing to sign with our legal names and residential addresses. Who would imagine that we could trust the feds and others with that kind of information?

I do think that the message that many, if not most, ladies in our professions are working by choice has gotten out there. The public really has no idea how many of us there are, or that we live on the same street, in the same neighbourhood or apartment building as they do, sending our children to the same schools as theirs and standing around chatting with them as we all try to stay warm while our kids run around together on the soccer field.

Certainly in Vancouver, after the hearing that followed-up on the Picton trial, it's reasonable to say that lots of people in the city heard a lot about the differences between women who work outdoors and those of us who don't. The "abolitionist" advocates haven't been able to generate a lot of support here.

Originally repling to MsSarah That would have an impact for sure! But it would be very difficult to do. Women who have been, or are being, forced into prostitution are difficult to reach. They don't join boards like this one, for example, or at least they don't in the early days of their career. And the majority of women leave the sex trade within six months of entering it. So it would be difficult to get the word out.

 

Petitions signed with pseudonyms are of questionable value, yet most of us would not be willing to sign with our legal names and residential addresses. Who would imagine that we could trust the feds and others with that kind of information?

 

I do think that the message that many, if not most, ladies in our professions are working by choice has gotten out there. The public really has no idea how many of us there are, or that we live on the same street, in the same neighbourhood or apartment building as they do, sending our children to the same schools as theirs and standing around chatting with them as we all try to stay warm while our kids run around together on the soccer field.

 

Certainly in Vancouver, after the hearing that followed-up on the Picton trial, it's reasonable to say that lots of people in the city heard a lot about the differences between women who work outdoors and those of us who don't. The "abolitionist" advocates haven't been able to generate a lot of support here.

Hello Samantha:

True, persons that had been forced into the sex trade do not normally join boards like this one and, as you mentioned, an online senses would be difficult because of privacy concerns. However, I wonder what media they do use? It might be useful to network with "Women, Action, and the Media" (WAM!) [ Vancouver WAM! Chapter link ] to explore alternate ways of gathering information wihch is statistically viable.

WAM! Is a diverse group for sure. Sometimes the debates can get quite heated. But that also means a wide range of ideas and approaches could be generated and worked on. No doubt it would mean sex workers, misuses, dancers and researchers who may not otherwise hear about this could become involved.

PatrickGC

Thanks for posting Patrick!

We can't prove how many woman are being trafficked, but we can reach all the SP's who advertise online and get an idea of how many in the industry aren't being exploited.

What if we were to post a carefully worded online petition thread on all the industry site forums that would allow us to?

We could ask all the Indy and agency SP's who are working of their own free will to post in the thread as an electronic signature using their working name. SP's enter and exit the industry constantly, so keep the threads running for months, years, and and see how many name we accumulate. When we reach a significant number combined from all the sites, we contact a major news agency and give them the results, or give the results to crime studies like the ones mentioned above ...

Think of how many thousands of SP's we could get to sign on the various review boards and ad sites across the country. Not many people would bother to create handles and personas just to fake a name on the petition, but we'd just have to accept it's gonna happen.

Only SP's can sign the petition, no spam posts allowed in the threads. I'd be willing to work on this with someone who knows the legal jargon .

"I, the undersigned, do solemnly swear that I am working as a SP of my own free will ..." whatever we want them to swear to.

We could draft a letter to site admins explaining our motives for the petition and get permission to post it in forums wherever SP's advertise.

Good idea MsSarah!

Informal or not such a petition would give an indication of how big the industry is across Canada, and that the very least, might provide a sense of solidarity. Which is something that I think is sorely lacking on the whole. Outside of boards like this and affiliations with the various groups, the sex industry is seen [i think] by most as solitary, isolating work. Which indeed may currently be true. Of the workers I have no one over the years many have been staunch individualists determined to do their own thing, occasionally to the extreme. This might really help to bring them in to the larger community.

Let's formalize this idea as the thread continues as far as how to make it work etc. CERB does have a very informal polling feature which might be useful in a rudimentary prototype experiment. This would also help to bring ideas forward. I am going to get ahead of myself again...

A lawyer with the correct background could probably be found through Pivot Legal Society. Also, " FIRST: Decriminalize Sex Work Now! " Has a mail list server on which we could post announcements, request for feedback etc. which goes on around the world.

Just brainstorming. What does everyone think of the petition idea in general?

.PatrickGC

Thanks again Patrick! :D

Here's a couple sites that teach how to set up an online petition.

http://www.change.org/petition

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/

It could be done with separate petitions on each board/ad site, or by posting links on each site leading to one petition on a host site. Some sites won't allow links to other industry sites though, so having separate ones might be the only way to do it.

I figured it wouldn't hurt to present the idea and get the brilliant minds (like Samantha's) thinking about it.

Edit - I wonder if the Dept. of Criminology would be interested in helping set something up to accompany their research? Does anyone have contacts there?

Having a chat with the folks at PIVOT would be a very good idea, I think.

We generally estimate that street-based sex workers comprise about 8-10% of all sex workers in Vancouver, though some people think that this number is inflated. PIVOT and others are involved in several studies of sex workers in the Greater Vancouver area. Their input about how to involve independent sex workers in sufficiently large numbers as to be representative of the industry overall would be helpful.

There are seasonal concerns, as well. Right now, we're seeing a significant increase in the number of sex workers advertising in the usual free and low-cost places. Most of these are students who turn to the sex trade as a place for summer employment. Most of them will leave the work soon, some by early June, others by mid-July, and the last by the end of August.

We also have an increase in workers from overseas who come to Canada on visitors' visas. Some will stay in the Vancouver area, some will move around the province, and some will travel across the country over the next 4-6 months. Nearly all of them are managed by and working in the Asian micro-brothels. We have no idea how many of these workers are here at any one time and very few of us have any direct contact with them.

What's clear is that this time--the late spring and early summer--is a challenging one in the sex trade. Newbie SPs frequently think that they need to undercut the market to succeed. They're often preyed upon by unscrupulous, fly-by-night "agencies" (pimps) as well as men who focus on very young and inexperienced women. It's rare for these workers to know about Cerb or even the other boards. It's even more rare for them to make meaningful connections with established companions. They believe the generally false notion that all workers in our trade are competing with each other for a small number of potential clients. They imagine that price wars are useful. They think that they're taking clients away from ladies who charge considerably higher fees. Far too often, they don't have accurate information about STIs and safer sex. Most know almost nothing about violence prevention or self-defense. However voluntary their decision to join our profession may be, they have minimal access to accurate, reliable sources of information about laws, health and safety. When they run into trouble, which is often, they have no support and don't know where to find advocates when they need them. Sadly, while most established ladies in the sex trade do not have to contend with violence and abuse very often, the independent and very isolated new workers do.

I recognize that the idea of a survey or petition from independent sex workers is not necessarily connected to these concerns about workers' health and safety, but for me, the greatest benefit of such a survey is to help connect workers with what they need for their well-being. Because, really, I don't trust law-makers one iota. I trust the government as far as I can throw it. I'll provide a modicum of information where it's useful, but I am reluctant to invest energy in outcomes until sex work is completely decriminalized and its regulation is exercised by sex workers and only sex workers. I do hope for that time, but I don't hold my breath.

The temptations related to sex and money are vast. It will be extremely difficult for law-makers, by-law writers and morality police of every stripe to let go of the opportunities that they may be able to exploit or create in the time ahead. And I know for sure that none of the non-sex working authorities will have an adequate or realistic understanding of the realities of doing the work, let alone workers' health and safety needs.

Connecting with your local sex worker resource group is a good way to get started in terms of law reform (if it should come - most likely will). The more organized we are about our needs the better we are to let law makers know our realities and needs.

I took part in such a project a few years ago and while consensus was difficult to get even among workers it was an important process.

Not about us without us.

Hi Samantha and all:

Reaching the immigrants and a new workers who adds a group I agree suffer the abuses of the most might be done by finding people already in the trade by choice who are already part of the various cultures. "Who" would be a trust, and how can their safety be assured are serious questions which mean to be answered along the way as this idea unfolds. This absolutely must be done from within the community and totally community driven. - By community I mean all who work in the sex trade and related fields. -

I haven't looked at the petition links MsSarah posted but it occurred to me that ideally the petition should be hosted by one Canadian based organization [preferably grass roots] which is accountable and transparent. --- Is there such an animal? -- so that it doesn't become a statistical nightmare.

Here's a couple sites that teach how to set up an online petition.

 

http://www.change.org/petition

 

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/

As this come together, -I'm just thinking off the top of my head now- we might approach people in organizations like Free Geek Vancouver to find is such a hosting organization or maybe even a programmer who happens to be in the sex trade. This is totally not part of free geek's mandate or even focus, but they are very good at digging up resources especially open source and are run on a consensus model. I have had an off and on affiliation with free geek Vancouver for years so I can approach them it we run into problems regarding putting the petition online etc.

Samantha, you have raised spot-on concerns regarding bureaucracy etc. [How many thousands of hours spent on the phone, writing reports and endless correspondence with people they don't really want to change the status quo; entrenched in their own reality.] Part of this survey process will undoubtedly be very stressful and demonizing as things proceed. Sorry if this sounds like a bit of a downer everyone but it is the true when dealing with the hierarchical machinery. Nevertheless we should proceed and keeping it run by the community.

I will post again tomorrow or later tonight. Rereading the entire thread and allowing some ideas to gel to the point where they can be presented any moral or less coherent form for feedback etc.

PatrickGC

PS: I hope the above does not sound authoritarian or arrogant. That was not my intent. If anyone feels that I, in any way overstepping boundaries. Please do say so.

Hello one, and all:

Apologies for the long delay in posting. Bureaucracy has the more than annoying habit of erupting in a flurry, consuming a great deal of energy and an almost as quickly settling down. [Kind of like a muscle spasm, now that I think about it.-in other words: Unexpected, unavoidable, and incredibly annoying.]

I am wondering about the best way for the online petition to reach the immigrant/disenfranchise/newbie sex worker populations. The more I think about it, the online petition can be done. The vocal among us already have a voice and the media as well as the bureaucracy is quite familiar in engaging with the normal "Activist Choir" and we as a community know them all too well. Even if the petition is not totally scientific people from underrepresented communities need to have input. The more people involved the more likely is the petition will have an impact

Who in the community here are part of, or have access to, immigrant communities and people? Are there any sex worker driven publications, online or otherwise, from these cultures which we can enlist or publish an article to spread the word about the petition? I realize that the article idea does not take into account the various cultural attitudes and indeed may be very naïve. But you never know....:)

What does everyone think?

PatrickGC