Prostitution laws continue for at least another month

Prostitution laws continue for at least another month

"Alan Young, the lawyer who argued the case for the winning side, said Friday in a taping of Global News's Focus Ontario program that he's agreed to a Crown request for a longer grace period.

"Simply because they look like they're panicking and in disarray and I feel somewhat sorry for them and I imagine if you've had a bad law for 30 years, another 30 days isn't going to make a huge difference," Young told Global News."

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canada/Prostitution+laws+continue+least+another+month/3646435/story.html

Makes sense, a prolonged extension of the stay during the appeals process is pretty much inevitable, I'd think (layman's opinion). No use wasting energy and money fighting the inevitable. Keep your powder dry until it can be used where it counts.

Marianne Takacs reports for The Star, 12 Oct 2010:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/874306--lawyer-seeks-to-speed-prostitution-case-to-top-court

 

So, basicly, it is forbidden to discuss any kind of sexual favors in a public area, such as Internet, street, payphone, cell phone (house phone is ok), or any place relating to a public area. (Up to 6 months in prison)..

I don't read French much, but I don't think this is fully correct. Solicitation in a public place (and place is a very important word here) is illegal (i.e. street, hotel lobby, car on public road, apartment complex common areas, shopping mall, public parking....) but that does not extend to internet, cell phone, email...as they are not considered to be public or place. This is likely why it would be more difficult to shut down erotic section of CL in Canada (unless they change the law or CL voluntarily shut it down). Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

a court challenge in the 80's here in Canada defined "place" as a physical public location. a magaine (was either eye or now magazine in Toronto). was charged for allowing the escorts to advertise in it. the magazine took this to court and won as the judge determined that a magazine is not a "place". making advertising in newsprint, tv, and Internet all very much legal.

now, if you advertise you do illegal things (in calls) or advertise you do stuff like "car dates". and "public sex". that is illegal.

Is considered as a public area, all area exposed to the public.

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/CIR/822-f.htm#definitiontxt

Here is one of Sabrina's link in english.

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/CIR/822-e.htm#issuetxt

It's an interesting read. It summarises many points i've read.

This article (french only)

http://soquij.qc.ca/fr/ressources-pour-tous/articles/les-danses-contacts-divertissement-ou-acte-de-prostitution

applies the same analysis from court cases in Quebec in regards to strip clubs (entertainment vs prostitution - thus applying the bawdy-house rule and or committing indecent acts).

Complex issues better read at another time thatn 11 at night...

a court challenge in the 80's here in Canada defined "place" as a physical public location. a magaine (was either eye or now magazine in Toronto). was charged for allowing the escorts to advertise in it. the magazine took this to court and won as the judge determined that a magazine is not a "place". making advertising in newsprint, tv, and Internet all very much legal.

I think that same decision also said that advertising in print was not the same as soliciting in public, in that no one is forced to read advertisements if they don't want to. Reading ads is considered to be private activity.

so what is the situation presently? What is meant by the decision being "stayed"? Does this mean the laws are still on the books or off the books?

the current laws remain at this time.

Is considered as a public area, all area exposed to the public.

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/CIR/822-f.htm#definitiontxt

 

Regarding CL, it's an American website, to wich does'nt apply regular laws. http://www.prac.org/materials/1997_Santiago/PRACstewart.html . I never talked about e-mails, and is considered by law a public area everywhere that conversation COULD be heard by any unsollicitated person, including children. (See previous link.)

 

The way I see it, the only way to be legal is: If you work for Government, do not use your worktime to set up an appoinment or to meet (it is consider as a public good, since it's tax founded), lock yourself in a single bathroom where nobody can hear you, meet at your place (hotel-motel are public areas, her appartment considered as a bawdy house), make sure she drives her own car (driving somebody in the intent of prostitution - living of the avail of prostitution), in doubt, ask for ID's (juvenile prostitution), make sure she does'nt have a roommate (contributing to a criminal offense - living of the avail of prostitution), AND HAVE FUN!

 

Most of the websites I've visit are stating that eventhought prostitution IS LEGAL, most of the ACTIVITIES RELATING TO IT is ILLEGAL...

 

Gee, sorry, but I'm not digging over the Internet for more info, my brain does'nt participate anymore, and I call my lawyer by his first name now...

 

OuFFF!

 

Additional Comments:

Vancouver, Calgary, Niagara Falls, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax have tried to fight prostitution in three ways: Criminization, Decriminization and Regulation, but the Frazer Comitee never agreed on neither of them...

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/CIR/822-f.htm

As one (and I'm sure not the only one) who works for the government, that reason (italics mine, but post is Grasshopper's) is another reason not to provide a sp your work number, it could lead to violation of the law

RG

The Ontario Court of Appeal heard arguments today about whether the stay of Judge Himel's ruling should be extended beyond the 60-day expiry date of 27 November. The decision has been reserved. The stay will remain in effect until the decision is made, even if that is after the 27th. The decision is expected to be announced before the 27th, however.

Allison Jones reports for the Globe & Mail, 22 Nov 2010:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/court-asked-to-put-landmark-prostitution-ruling-on-hold/article1809279/

Amy Dempsey reports for The Star, 26 Nov 2010:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/897750--no-prostitution-free-for-all-this-weekend

Here is another article

http://www.yourottawaregion.com/news/article/894362--prostitution-ruling-gets-hintonburg-community-association-talking

Pat O’Brien wants sex workers to be protected, but he also relates prostitution to drugs, crack houses and pimps – and he wants to make sure his community is protected.

That’s why O’Brien, president of the Hintonburg Community Association, recently held a meeting with police and other community members to see how they’re interpreting the recent prostitution ruling. He’s also hoping that community groups will get involved in the final decision.

“We’re saying to the government – at the municipal, federal and provincial level – that when it comes time to come up with a solution, talk to the communities,” he said. Ontario Superior Court Judge Susan Himel recently struck down three provisions: communicating for the purpose of prostitution, pimping and operating a common bawdy house.

It’s still against the law for sex workers to stop or attempt to stop motor vehicles, and to impede the flow of pedestrians or vehicle traffic.

Himel originally delayed her order from taking affect for 30 days at the end of September, but a “grace period” is now in place for it to be extended for an additional 30 days.

O’Brien said Hintonburg used to be an area with high prostitution and drug use in the 1990s and early 2000s.

He said the community worked together to implement programs, get citizens involved and create community patrols.

“The issue we’ve primarily had with prostitution was not prostitution itself, but everything that comes with it,” said O’Brien. “We have a completely different community today.”

Because of this community work in trying to abolish prostitution in Hintonburg, O’Brien said it’s important that communities be involved in the ultimate decision regarding sex workers.

“It’s the citizens with practical experience who have worked in this area for years and years who should be consulted,” he said. “We want to be part of the decision-making, which we think would be better than just having something imposed.”

Chris Bruckert, a University of Ottawa criminology professor and former sex worker, said she understands that communities are concerned. But, she said the relation between sex workers and drugs isn’t so clear cut.

While she acknowledges that there are sex workers who are drug users, they don’t always accompany one another.

“This idea that with one comes the other, that’s a questionable assertion,” Bruckert said. “The empirical evidence does not support that.”

She adds that if communities are concerned with sex workers who are also drug users, there are already laws in place for drugs and crack houses.

“The police have a very large toolbox and there are adequate laws in place to deal with nuisance,” she said. “In my opinion, we have to realize that there are too many laws to regulate sex workers.”

O’Brien said he’s heard from residents in Vanier’s community association who have complained about feeling insecure in their own neighbourhood because of drug use and prostitution.

He said it’s important for the community to feel safe, while making sure sex workers are safe as well.

There has to be solutions to drug problems and crime in a community where prostitution is being practiced, O’Brien said.

“The solutions are best made in consultation with the communities affected,” he said.

In the case of Hintonburg, O’Brien said nobody defended the recent decision at his meeting with the police and community.

However Bruckert said communities need to be careful in making generalizations about Canadian society as a whole, and how Canadians view prostitution.

She said an Angus Reid poll came out before Himel’s decision that indicated 50 per cent of Canadians want prostitution decriminalized.

“Sex workers live in places like Hintonburg and Vanier,” Bruckert said. “You have to appreciate that sex workers are a part of the community. You have to acknowledge the multiplicity of the community and exercise caution.”

She added that she’s surprised that a community association would be concerned with the recent prostitution decision.

“Even if her judgment took effect, they would be able to work in small establishments and apartments,” she said. “It seems to me a community interested in the safety of sex work, and interested in the neighbourhood, would really embrace these laws.”

O’Brien said that the recent discussion has people talking about the issue, which is a good start.

“Whether you agree with the ruling or not, society tackled this as opposed to swept this under the rug or did the hush-hush,” he said. “Let’s see what we can do as community to ensure that those in the community practicing the profession are safe, and ensure the communities are safe.”

Additional Comments:

:handjob:

Here is another article , and this guy totally stole my quote from Cerb.

Thanx for reading , I guess copying is the best form of flattery LOL ...

To be fair, it should be noted that this article was published 28 October 2010. This is before you joined Cerb. So perhaps it's more like "great minds think alike"!

Oh Thx! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Chris Bruckert, a University of Ottawa criminology professor and former sex worker, said she understands that communities are concerned. But, she said the relation between sex workers and drugs isn?t so clear cut.

This is fascinating. An U of O prof that was a sex worker?

whiteman - She is a friend of mine and yes she's a former sex worker who is now a professor.

Posted via Mobile Device

He was referring to a particular part of Ottawa which was notorious for street walkers which was very noticeble during those years. I hate to say it, but it was also when harder drugs like crack cocaine emerged on the drug scene in Ottawa. The on-street presence of street walkers in the Hintonburg area has died down quite a bit. It has now spread to other areas like Carlington Heights and South Keys. Police and neighbourhood presence may account for some of it, but it may also be attributed also to the fact that these girls have found other venues to solicit (telephone chat line, free on-line ads like CL, etc.). Just because you don't see it on the street, doesn't mean, it's still not going on behind closed doors.

 

Would it go back to the way it was? Who's to say for sure.

But if it's moved indoors, isn't that exactly what everybody was looking for? That is, that it is not public on the street anymore?

Additional Comments:

whiteman - She is a friend of mine and yes she's a former sex worker who is now a professor.

Posted via Mobile Device

Interesting, so did you and her work together for a time? Did she ever mention why she was a sex worker, i.e. was she doing research, or paying her way through school, etc.?

CBC News reports, 29 Nov 2010:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/11/29/toronto-prostitution-appeal-ruling-pending.html